When Buster Posey started behind the plate in a major-league game for the first time, the San Francisco Giants’ right fielder on September 25, 2009, was Randy Winn.
Oddly enough, it was the only game in which Posey and Winn would appear together in a Giants lineup. Their careers intersected for the briefest of moments at the end of a winning but unfulfilling season that did not include a playoff appearance. It was the end of Winn’s five-season tenure in San Francisco and the beginning for Posey, who would go on to transform a franchise.
They didn’t know each other well as teammates. But they both had a hunch that they saw the game the same way and shared many of the same philosophies and priorities, and that they would’ve meshed well in a major-league clubhouse over a longer stretch. Over the past couple of years, their paths would converge on occasion after Winn rejoined the organization as a roving instructor/pro scout and Posey bought into the ownership group. Then three months ago, when Posey took over as president of baseball operations, he determined that Winn merited a critical place in his inner circle.
They are teammates again.
Posey elevated Winn from a pro scouting role to vice president of player development, a newly created position in which he will oversee all aspects of the minor-league system and instruction. Winn will work in tandem with farm director Kyle Haines, who will be retained in his role as senior director of player development.
You won’t find anyone at 24 Willie Mays Plaza who would disagree with this statement: No matter whom the Giants sign or how much (or how little) they spend, they won’t return to sustained success or occupy a place in the division’s upper echelon until they begin to reestablish a semblance of the player development success that brought Posey, Matt Cain, Tim Lincecum, Madison Bumgarner, Brandon Belt, Brandon Crawford, Pablo Sandoval, Sergio Romo, Brian Wilson, Joe Panik, Jonathan Sánchez and so many others to the big leagues.
On this point, Winn and Posey seem most aligned: For all the measurable data and sports science that has become part of a modern farm system, developing players remains just as much of an art form as it ever was. And the best way to develop as an artist is to have them put paint on the canvas.
Over the course of an hour-long conversation, Winn stressed this point again and again: The organization’s goal will be to produce winning ballplayers, not just to develop measurable skills. The following interview, which is focused on philosophies and not thoughts on individual players as Winn is reserving that for when he’s seen them in live action, has been edited for length and clarity.
Randy Winn runs the bases with the Giants. (Brad Mangin / MLB Photos via Getty Images)
You’ve been involved in the front office for a few years but this will be your first experience in a top executive position. How did this come about?
Randy Winn: It came about with a phone call from Buster. I’d sent him a congratulatory text and he responded and asked if I would be interested in getting back in. I said yes, and after he hired (GM) Zack (Minasian), we continued our conversation, and one of the things that kept coming up about the state of the team was the minor leagues. Both of us shared a passion for the minor leagues and how instrumental they are. Within a couple conversations, we landed on this role.
When he initially contacted you, was he compiling a list of GM candidates?
Yes. So that was our initial call, and through that process, one of the things I identified as an area that could be a little bit better was the minor leagues. I think he shared that sentiment. It’s a passion of his to see the minor leagues impact the big-league club. That’s not a secret. It was a shared interest and not just from his position as president of baseball ops. You look directly at the championships he won and the role the farm system played in those seasons, and the impact those players had on the city, that’s where he comes from.
Given how little time you overlapped with Posey as a player, how well did you really know him?
We didn’t share the field a whole lot. But we did share the clubhouse in the spring (of 2009). That was the first time I’d ever laid eyes on him as a player. What jumped out to me is what jumped out to everyone else: his level of maturity, and obviously, his skills as a hitter. But you’re right, we weren’t particularly close, we didn’t go out to dinners or talk all the time.
Then with my coming to the organization and bouncing around in different roles, our paths crossed quite a bit. You know Buster. He’s got kind of a sarcastic sense of humor, so he was always jabbing and poking at me, all in good-natured fun. I’d heard from other people in the organization that we were very similar. And in the conversations we’ve had, we share the same passions and goals. Probably the biggest thing we share is that we love this organization and we want this organization to be successful.
How would you describe your philosophies when it comes to player development?
I don’t think any of this is rocket science. I’m not going to try to reinvent the wheel. In the minor leagues, our goal is to develop winning major-league players who can come up and impact the big leagues, Hopefully you develop a superstar or two but your goal is that everyone you develop has a chance to come up and help the major-league team win.
What does that mean? Well, if you start at the big-league level, you want a team that can win ballgames in all sorts of ways: either by scoring lots of runs or winning, 2-1, by executing on the fundamentals, with situational hitting, with good baserunning. That’s how you win a lot of games.
Our job in the minor leagues is to create players who can contribute to that kind of team. You want to make players as well-rounded as they can be. But everybody has their own strengths and skill sets. So it’s not one size fits all. You throw all that together and that’s my basic philosophy: We’re trying to make everybody the best player they can be and have them impact the major-league club and turn into winning ballplayers. And a big part of that is understanding what a winning player is.
I’ll say a little more: I think we’ve got to get back to teaching the ballgame. A lot of amateur baseball has turned into showcase baseball. Good, bad or whatever, that’s where we are. There’s less (emphasis) on playing games and more on putting players in situations to showcase their talents and abilities. When we talk about winning baseball players, it’s understanding game situations, playing to the score, knowing who you are as a player. Should I be looking to bunt here? To run here? How can I make the biggest impact on this game? I think that having players understand that, along with having people on the minor-league side who can teach those things, is really important.
There’s skill development and there’s developing game awareness and having the aptitude to understand how to apply those skills. Do you see them as mutually exclusive goals? Can you be great at both? As a baseball industry, has the pendulum swung too far toward measurable skill development at the expense of understanding the application of those skills?
Yes, I think the pendulum has swung too far. I don’t think this is a Giants thing or even a baseball thing. I love watching all sports and so I think about golf: A few years ago, golf was very numbers-driven. Everybody had launch monitors and were trying to get certain outputs. The pendulum might have swung too far and now it’s swinging back toward the middle.
With that said, I really don’t like the “old school vs. new school” debate. I don’t think of myself as old school or new school. I’m just me. And I think there’s a balance between what you’d call “old school” and analytics. Our job is to do both.
Randy Winn swings a golf club at the 2020 PGA Championship Media Day at Oracle Park. (Daniel Shirey / Getty Images for Fleishman)
To become a winning baseball player, you need to have talent and skill. You also need to know how to play the game. I don’t think that’s changed, to be honest. When you look at every team that’s won a World Series, that’s what they did best over the season. I probably shouldn’t mention the Dodgers, but … look at the Dodgers. They have a very well-rounded roster. They have very good players who are super-skilled. Mookie Betts is a great baserunner. Shohei (Ohtani) is a great baserunner. They play small ball. They play big ball. They pitch. They do the little things. They’re clutch. All the things it takes to win — take away the money, take away all the other stuff — that’s what every winning team does. So that’s where our focus will be.
How does your own experience as a player impact the way you’ll go into this role? Was there anything or anyone in your own development that will serve as a touchstone for you?
Absolutely. I got drafted by the Marlins before I got taken (by Tampa Bay) in the expansion draft. And I thought the Marlins did an outstanding job in terms of player development, in terms of player plans, in terms of all the stuff they had me work on. I bunted and bunted and bunted all the time. There was a gentleman, Tony Taylor, who was our infield coordinator and he did all the bunting. I remember in instructional league I’d play half the game and then go to the back field and bunt. And do you remember Luis Castillo, played second base for the Marlins and the Mets? So Luis would be there when I got there. And Luis would be there when I left. He was a switch hitter like me. The things in our skill sets are the things we worked and worked at.
But the story that sticks out was from spring training in 1997. I go in for my player meeting with John Boles, who was the head of the minor leagues. He’s going to give me my expectations for the year. I was upset because I thought I deserved to start at Double A. I thought I played well enough to earn that. But they had me at High A because Mark Kotsay, a name you might know, was starting at Double A. I’d played with Kots the year before and I wouldn’t tell him this, but I’ll admit he was better than I was at that point. So in my meeting, Boles said, “Listen, if you play well, you’ll move up to Double A. Kotsay’s not blocking you. That’s No. 1. And No. 2, I want you to attempt 100 steals. Bye.” Bye! That was my meeting!
So first, I knew if I played well, I would move up. That was encouraging. And second, it wasn’t about how many times I could be successful. They wanted me to attempt 100 steals. That sounded like the dumbest thing ever to me at the time. I’m thinking, “I want to be in control, I want to be sure I’m safe.” But I did my best. I don’t know how many I attempted. It wasn’t 100. But I stole 51 bases, and the next year, in 1998, I get called up to pinch run in late and close games. I’m at Yankee Stadium with Mariano Rivera on the mound and I’m expected to know how to steal a base and I did. I knew when I could get a good jump and I knew when to shut it down. It was because of all those attempts the year before.
So the moral of the story is that a player plan should be simple, No. 1, and No. 2, it’s OK to fail in Low A or Double A. Nobody cares! The goal isn’t to steal 100 percent of your bases. The goal was that when I got to the big leagues, that I’d understand how to steal bases. I’ve told that story to a lot of people over the years. I told Buster that story. I think it’s important because it shows the importance of having a clear player plan and making sure the goal of that plan is to develop a player who can help you in the big leagues.
It might be reductive to call you the Giants’ new farm director because Kyle Haines will continue as senior director of player development. How do you envision dividing work responsibilities between the two of you?
I really like Kyle and my job is not to change his role or to take any power away from what he’s doing. My job is to empower him to do his job better. If you look at the industry, there are so many more people who touch baseball ops than just five or seven years ago.
Kyle is overseeing the entire minor leagues, all the logistics, all the instruction. You’ve got nutrition, you’ve got strength and conditioning, you’ve got so many staff members. His world has just exploded. So my job is to take some of that off his shoulders from a high level. All of our goals are to make the best version of a baseball player, but how do we all do that together? What are we doing? What are we teaching? How are we teaching it? Helping to direct all of that … is what my job will be.
What will your week-to-week schedule look like?
Because I’m a planner (laughs), I’ve got it pretty well mapped out for the next six months. It’ll be a lot of travel. I want to see, touch and talk to everyone in the organization as soon as I possibly can. We’ve got two minicamps so I’m off to Arizona and then to the Dominican after that.
Spring training is easy because we’re all in one spot. During the season, I’ll go to all the affiliates, get with the staffs there, and also the affiliate ownership to make sure those relationships are stable and strong. It’ll be just getting to know people and making sure that what we’ve been discussing here on Zoom calls — what we’re teaching, how we’re teaching it, what are the expectations for staff and for players — is running seamlessly and how we envisioned it.
But I’m eager to see baseball. I’m trying my best to get to know our players, but you can only see so much on video. So I’m really excited to see them in person and watching our players compete in game settings.
What is the latest on the situation in Sacramento where the A’s will share Sutter Health Park with your Triple-A club? Are there any unanswered questions about how it’ll work?
What jumps out is the playing surface. It’s a lot of wear and tear to have two teams there. Everybody is thinking about this. Major League Baseball obviously wants a field that is MLB-quality. How do you do that when you’ll have a team basically playing every day?
The latest I’ve been told is we decided against a FieldTurf-type (artificial) surface just due to the heat. So we’ll continue with a natural grass surface and herein lie the maintenance issues. I know from standing out in center field in Oakland (after a Raiders game) that it was an issue. But we’re committed to making it work and MLB is committed to making it work. (The River Cats) are playing there, for sure.
As you begin to evaluate the current state of the system, what have you identified as things the organization is doing well?
I think we have some really quality people. I’m in a unique position coming into this job because I’ve been in the organization before and we still have a lot of the same people. So onboarding has been a little less stressful. We have James Clifford, who is overseeing all our strength and conditioning. He was in Seattle when I was with the Mariners. So Cliffy and I are both new but we’ve known each other forever. At his core, I already understand what’s important to him and what he wants to do. When you have quality people who know how to teach, and you know that their goal is to make a positive impact on the players, all of that is a great start.
What have you identified as the things that the organization needs to do better?
I think we have to get back to teaching and that starts with the fundamentals of baseball. We’ve already talked about it: You’ve got to teach skills but you’ve also got to teach the baseball IQ. It’s understanding the game and the scoreboard, understanding who you are, understanding, “How can I impact the game within my skill set?” I’ve talked to a lot of people in a lot of organizations and everyone seems to be wrestling with this: How can we make this individual better while also teaching this individual to know the game and understand what the expectations are from them in-game situations?
How much have you had to get up to speed on development tools that you didn’t encounter as a player? How important will it be to incorporate the latest and the greatest?
I think it’s hugely important. And that’s an area where I can step in and take a little off Kyle’s plate. Looking into the latest and greatest, new trends, new machines, statistically, analytically, biometrics — they’re all important and I’ve already had a lot of conversations within our group about things that I’m curious about. I’ve asked, “Hey, can we measure this?”
I’ve been on a couple of sales calls with reps who want to sell us new technology, and some of that stuff I find really interesting and exciting. Analytics and sports science aren’t going anywhere. There’s a lot of great stuff and the goal is to figure out what we can use to make players better.
Some of it is better used for research or for evaluation and maybe those need to stay in their own buckets. We’ll want to remain focused on the technology that can make players better. I was on a board with (former Twins GM) Terry Ryan and when I asked him about player development, he said, “Everything you do should be about the players. It’s that simple.”
It might be difficult to comment on the previous administration, but many fans and media members didn’t see a coherent or consistent plan when it came to minor-league promotions. How do you view the promotion process? You came up at a time when the mantra was to “master your level” and advance on a year-to-year basis. But now the minor leagues have been truncated and organizations have smaller reserve lists. It’s understandable that teams would feel pressure to develop players faster because they have fewer spaces to go around. But are those teams doing a disservice to players by promoting them too quickly?
In my mind, when we develop a player, we want to keep them at a level as long as possible so that when they go up, they’re ready and they don’t go back. You know that’s not always going to be the reality. And you also can’t develop a player completely in the minor leagues. There are things you only learn in the major leagues.
But that’s our mindset: The only way you get better is with reps. So yes, I would like to slow down the process of moving guys up. I would like guys to stay in a place for a full season. I think that’s how you learn: seeing the same (opposing) teams over and over, seeing how they make adjustments to you and how you adjust back. When somebody is killing a league, that can be the best time to implement change. If a player is hitting .336 with a ton of home runs at (Low-A) San Jose, but we see something that’s going to be a problem at the next level, that’s the time to put a little nugget at the back of his head. Because if you wait until they’re at Double A and they’re hitting .196 … anybody who’s ever put on the uniform knows what it feels like when you’re drowning and in a slump. You’re just trying anything. That is not the time to make a successful change, in my mind.
So I want to slow down the development process. Now, you don’t always have control of that. The needs of the big-league club dictates a lot of when a guy gets called up. But I would love to slow things down and have guys play full seasons at one level.
On the pitching side, there was a concerted effort by the previous administration to limit innings and it resulted in some frustration among coaches and players. It also resulted in young pitchers like Hayden Birdsong or Kyle Harrison throwing more pitches in a big-league start than they’d ever been allowed to throw in a minor-league outing. Where do you stand on that and what do you imagine pitching volume for prospects will look like going forward?
I don’t know how you learn to pitch deep in ballgames unless you’ve done it. You could say the same about (position players). I don’t understand how you learn to steal bases unless you’ve tried and done it in the minor leagues. Our goal will be to get people as many reps as possible without putting them at risk of injury. That’s where the fine line has always been and that’s why people decided not to throw pitchers a lot in the minors. It’s because they were concerned about arm health. They wanted to elevate guys and save their arms. But I just don’t know that it’s worked to help pitchers pitch longer.
We’re still talking about Max Scherzer and Justin Verlander, guys in their 40s, and they threw a lot of innings in the minors. Look at Logan Webb. That’s the discussion: How do we get guys the reps they need to develop and also keep them healthy? How are you going to learn that third or fourth pitch to get through a lineup a third time if you never get to that point?
This is a complicated area but, in your opinion, are minor-league pitchers not throwing enough innings?
No, I don’t believe that they are. Injuries are still spiking. The expectation for pitchers is that they have to be max effort. So no, I do not think that they are throwing enough within their human capabilities. I think pitchers should throw more within their capabilities, which means not to max effort all the time, not trying for max spin rate all the time. I think those things have led to some arm health issues. If you do it that way and just push guys through, you’re developing one-inning to two-inning guys with one or two pitches. So that’s what you’re going to get.
For some players, that is their role and who they’re going to be. But when you’re talking about rotation guys, they need to have a third pitch. They need to have command. They need to be able to pitch to contact at some point to keep their pitch counts down. All those are things you learn by doing them.
(Top photo of Winn at the 2023 Futures Game: Jorden Dixon / MLB Photos via Getty Images)
